Risk Management

The Profession

Director of risk management Joseph Mazza says heightened visibility is good for risk managers, but cyber remains a top challenge.
By: | October 15, 2015 • 4 min read

R&I: What was your first job?

During my senior year in high school, [I worked] as a custodian every night and full time on Saturdays for $1 an hour. I had the run of the school. It turned into a summer job at $1.25 an hour after senior year!

R&I: How did you come to work in risk management?

Having started as an insurance agent in life, health, and then property and casualty in 1975 at John Hancock … I wanted to explore company exposures beyond the insurance field. … I worked for a multiline commercial insurance agency and then a national retailer insurance program for franchisees with Ace Hardware for 20-some odd years. I enrolled in the Associate in Risk Management (ARM) program in 1997 and 1998, and was hired the next year by DaimlerChrysler.

R&I: What’s been the biggest change in the risk management and insurance industry since you’ve been in it?


For risk management, the biggest change has been heightened visibility and a better understanding of what it is and how it can drastically impact the bottom line of any entity. For insurance, it’s the speed and communication between underwriters and the producer with the advent of technology. Keep in mind I started in the “write back” days of waiting and waiting for snail mail to arrive.

R&I: What emerging commercial risk most concerns you?

As everyone currently considers data breaches a primary concern, I will go with that one too, and have implemented an insurance policy for my district accordingly. … The main focus here would be protection of data for employee records, student records, financial aid records and other important data we have in our computer systems. If we had a breach, it would be devastating.


Joseph Mazza, Director, Risk Management/ ADA Coordinator, MiraCosta Community College District

R&I: How would you rate the insurance industry’s response to cyber risk?
Excellent so far with corresponding rate increases coming now that more purchasers are coming on board. Those insured losses need to be paid by someone. I think the frequency of cyber risk is increasing, and that frequency can cause a big severity problem.

R&I: Who is your mentor and why?

Most recently, Edwin Hall, a former regional manager with DaimlerChrysler, who had a great way of understanding and managing people. For my insurance career, it was Al Klipstein, who was an agent when I was with John Hancock. His personality matched mine and I learned so much about the business from him as he was highly successful and a great source of information.

R&I: What have you accomplished that you are proudest of?

Building relationships with colleagues in and out of my entity is the main one. I have been able to implement important driver authorization programs for district drivers. Serving as the San Diego RIMS chapter president for two years in 2012 and 2013 and being awarded the Risk Professional of the Year designation for my chapter in 2008 are very special to me too. I have found that my sense of humor has really helped break the ice and build rapport and it makes my life and career more enjoyable.

R&I: What insurance carrier do you have the highest opinion of?

I like both ACE and AIG as they are both equally high-quality carriers, with AIG returning to an important spot in the marketplace since the financial crisis.

R&I: Are you optimistic about the U.S. economy or pessimistic and why?

Being a born optimist, I am hopeful that the free market system really gets back to the growth days we saw several decades ago.

R&I: What is the best restaurant you’ve ever eaten at?

Antoine’s Restaurant in New Orleans. My wife and I once had a meal there in the early ’90s that ended with the server pouring a liquor-based sauce for dessert on the white tablecloth and lighting it! No one got burned and it was just a wonderful dinner. I’m not sure they still do that, but it was special.

R&I: What is the most unusual or interesting place you have ever visited?

Cumberland Falls State Park near Corbin, Ky., has a moonbow, the only one in the Western Hemisphere. You know what a rainbow is — here there is an actual “moonbow” at night!

R&I: What is the riskiest activity you ever engaged in?


Forcing myself to speak publicly, for someone with the fear of doing so, is very risky. It was dreadful the first few times. After that, I learned to find a few people to focus on in the front row and to make eye contact with them. If there’s a large group I will stand at the front door and introduce myself as the speaker or presenter. Now you aren’t speaking to a room of strangers; you’re not going in cold. It’s a technique that a lot of people can use.

R&I: What about this work do you find the most fulfilling or rewarding?

Since we are an educational institution, what is most fulfilling to me is serving faculty and students in a support role and making our district a great place to learn and succeed.

R&I: What do your friends and family think you do?

They know I was the “insurance guy” for years and then when risk management came along they did not understand it … . At one time, I told them I was in the witness protection program and earned a good living doing that — just kidding!

Janet Aschkenasy is a freelance financial writer based in New York. She can be reached at [email protected]

More from Risk & Insurance

More from Risk & Insurance

Risk Report: Marine

Crewless Ships Raise Questions

Is a remote operator legally a master? New technology confounds old terms.
By: | March 5, 2018 • 6 min read

For many developers, the accelerating development of remote-controlled and autonomous ships represents what could be the dawn of a new era. For underwriters and brokers, however, such vessels could represent the end of thousands of years of maritime law and risk management.

Rod Johnson, director of marine risk management, RSA Global Risk

While crewless vessels have yet to breach commercial service, there are active testing programs. Most brokers and underwriters expect small-scale commercial operations to be feasible in a few years, but that outlook only considers technical feasibility. How such operations will be insured remains unclear.

“I have been giving this a great deal of thought, this sits on my desk every day,” said Rod Johnson, director of marine risk management, RSA Global Risk, a major UK underwriter. Johnson sits on the loss-prevention committee of the International Union of Maritime Insurers.

“The agreed uncertainty that underpins marine insurance is falling away, but we are pretending that it isn’t. The contractual framework is being made less relevant all the time.”

Defining Autonomous Vessels

Two types of crewless vessels are being contemplated. First up is a drone with no one on board but actively controlled by a human at a remote command post on land or even on another vessel.

While some debate whether the controllers of drone aircrafts are pilots or operators, the very real question yet to be addressed is if a vessel controller is legally a “master” under maritime law.


The other type of crewless vessel would be completely autonomous, with the onboard systems making decisions about navigation, weather and operations.

Advocates tout the benefits of larger cargo capacity without crew spaces, including radically different hull designs without decks people can walk on. Doubters note a crew can fix things at sea while a ship cannot.

Rolls-Royce is one of the major proponents and designers. The company tested a remote-controlled tug in Copenhagen in June 2017.

“We think the initial early adopters will be vessels operating on fixed routes within coastal waters under the jurisdiction of flag states,” the company said.

“We expect to see the first autonomous vessel in commercial operation by the end of the decade. Further out, around 2025, we expect autonomous vessels to operate further from shore — perhaps coastal cargo ships. For ocean-going vessels to be autonomous, it will require a change in international regulations, so this will take longer.”

Once autonomous ships are a reality, “the entire current legal framework for maritime law and insurance is done,” said Johnson. “The master has not been replaced; he is just gone. Commodity ships (bulk carriers) would be most amenable to that technology. I’m not overly bothered by fully automated ships, but I am extremely bothered by heavily automated ones.”

He cited two risks specifically: hacking and fire.

“We expect to see the first autonomous vessel in commercial operation by the end of the decade. Further out, around 2025, we expect autonomous vessels to operate further from shore — perhaps coastal cargo ships. For ocean-going vessels to be autonomous, it will require a change in international regulations, so this will take longer.” — Rolls-Royce Holdings study

Andrew Kinsey, senior marine risk consultant, Allianz Global Corporate & Specialty, asked an even more existential question: “From an insurance standpoint, are we even still talking about a vessel as it is under law? Starting with the legal framework, the duty of a flag state is ‘manning of ships.’ What about the duty to render assistance? There cannot be insurance coverage of an illegal contract.”

Several sources noted that the technological development of crewless ships, while impressive, seems to be a solution in search of a problem. There is no known need in the market; no shippers, operators, owners or mariners advocate that crewless ships will solve their problems.

Kinsey takes umbrage at the suggestion that promotional material on crewless vessels cherry picks his company’s data, which found 75 percent to 90 percent of marine losses are caused by human error.


“Removing the humans from the vessels does not eliminate the human error. It just moves the human error from the helm to the coder. The reports on development by the companies with a vested interest [in crewless vessels] tend to read a lot like advertisements. The pressure for this is not coming from the end users.”

To be sure, Kinsey is a proponent of automation and technology when applied prudently, believing automation can make strides in areas of the supply chains. Much of the talk about automation is trying to bury the serious shortage of qualified crews. It also overshadows the very real potential for blockchain technology to overhaul the backend of marine insurance.

As a marine surveyor, Kinsey said he can go down to the wharf, inspect cranes, vessels and securements, and supervise loading and unloading — but he can’t inspect computer code or cyber security.

New Times, New Risks

In all fairness, insurance language has changed since the 17th century, especially as technology races ahead in the 21st.

“If you read any hull form, it’s practically Shakespearean,” said Stephen J. Harris, senior vice president of marine protection UK, Marsh. “The language is no longer fit for purpose. Our concern specifically to this topic is that the antiquated language talks about crew being on board. If they are not on board, do they still legally count as crew?”

Harris further questioned, “Under hull insurance, and provided that the ship owner has acted diligently, cover is extended to negligence of the master or crew. Does that still apply if the captain is not on board but sitting at a desk in an office?”

Andrew Kinsey, senior marine risk consultant, Allianz Global Corporate & Specialty

Several sources noted that a few international organizations, notably the Comite Maritime International and the International Maritime Organization, “have been very active in asking the legal profession around the world about their thoughts. The interpretations vary greatly. The legal complications of crewless vessels are actually more complicated than the technology.”

For example, if the operational, insurance and regulatory entities in two countries agree on the voyage of a crewless vessel across the ocean, a mishap or storm could drive the vessel into port or on shore of a third country that does not recognize those agreements.

“What worries insurers is legal uncertainty,” said Harris.

“If an operator did everything fine but a system went down, then most likely the designer would be responsible. But even if a designer explicitly accepted responsibility, what matters would be the flag state’s law in international waters and the local state’s law in territorial waters.


“We see the way ahead for this technology as local and short-sea operations. The law has to catch up with the technology, and it is showing no signs of doing so.”

Thomas M. Boudreau, head of specialty insurance, The Hartford, suggested that remote ferry operations could be the most appropriate use: “They travel fixed routes, all within one country’s waters.”

There could also be environmental and operational benefits from using battery power rather than conventional fuels.

“In terms of underwriting, the burden would shift to the manufacturer and designer of the operating systems,” Boudreau added.

It may just be, he suggested, that crewless ships are merely replacing old risks with new ones. Crews can deal with small repairs, fires or leaks at sea, but small conditions such as those can go unchecked and endanger the whole ship and cargo.

“The cyber risk is also concerning. The vessel may be safe from physical piracy, but what about hacking?” &

Gregory DL Morris is an independent business journalist based in New York with 25 years’ experience in industry, energy, finance and transportation. He can be reached at [email protected]